Snow chains not required/recommended on Outback?

Hi Mark, The CVT doesn't "know" anything, except equal rolling radii protects the center and rear AWD diffs from overheating. So just don't mix different HEIGHTS front/rear. Newer OBs like yours suffer from spongy 17" tires, so you'll be "stuck" with even spongier, overly heavy, squirmy winter tires if you go that route. If your winter surfaces frequently involve driving on ice or deep snow then you will benefit from the so-called studless ice and snow recs from The TireRack et al. If you simply want low temperature high speed performance with only occasional deep snow or pure ice I'd get a quieter, better winter tire like the Mich X-Ice3 (pretty quiet!), or the new Conti SI that looks great for the money. Graspics and Alimax are louder. Blizzaks and Pilots $$$. If you have the optional 18" wheels you have many more high performance options, allowing high speed touring on nicer days without hurting your ears. I fear blowig your head up b telling you that you can mix brands front-to-back, so long as you keep the slightly TALLER ones (whether different brands or simply more tread) up front so that squeeze down (60F/40R weight distribution, remember?) to match the rears. Then the CVT is stupidly happy. And don't bother with the stupid "starting in 2" mode on ice if you have a gentle foot. It's just a computer alogorithm, unlike the previous discrete multi-gear autoboxes.

TheSubaruGuruBoston, thank you. I actually live in Los Angeles, so, aside from trips to the mountains and other locale with snow, we don't have any local problems in SoCal. I do travel to Michigan, but, have not had any reason to bring my Subaru there. Who knows? But, your suggestions are very appreciated. I was surprised that in the owners manual it specifically says that chains are not recommended, but, a couple of people told me that these cars are so good in the snow that they show up pretty much everything else.

LA? Then just use decent All Season Tires that are on the aggressive side of the summer-winter continuum. TireRack's surveys can be helpful here. Problem is lots of UHP tires don't come in the new OB's stupid tall and soft sizes.

If you do not have cables or chains of some type the California Highway Patrol will not let you go to certain snowy areas, all wheel drive, 4wd or not.

While the 2006 Outback manual (p. 8-11) says there is insufficient clearance for chains with P225/55R17 tires, it goes on to say that when required (the Sierra in severe conditions) to mount Type S (low profile) "chains" (more likely the cable type) on the front wheels. When selecting chains be sure to check for potential interference with suspension components such as strut mounts.

I have the 2015 Outback with the 225-60R-18 Nokian WRG3 All Weather tires. I recently explored whether I could put chains or cables on the tires. Kal-tire, my go-to tire experts worked through this with me, and I referred to the car Manual. It says explicitly in the manual that you CAN NOT use tire chains because of the clearance issues which is true for many similar cars. However, there is a tire cable that can be used, and they are to be put only on the front tires. The recommended product is the "Super Z6" and it is easy to put on. They are rated for no more that 50Km/hr, but I suspect if I need chains I will be going considerably slower than that. Hope that helps! Jon

NEVER asymmetrically load a Subaru AWD like that!

When checking snow cables like the "Super Z6" by SCC (Peerless) for interference include checking whether the inner side cable interferes with any part of the suspension, such as the strut mounts. This is a problem with my 2006 Honda Civic and I had to use the radial cable type. I haven't yet tried SCC diagonal (Z) style with my "new" 2006 Outback though I intend to. I've used SCC diagonal style cables for many years on RWD Volvos and they smoothly and very effective and durable.

Ken, the primary issue is that you most probably will set up unequal rolling radii, stressing the tranny unforgivingly, as it won't tolerate more than a 1% asymmetry at speed. Even if you assure symmetry any sustained slippage due to uneven traction will also risk tranny wear if chronic. At the very least ensure that the SMALLER tires go up front WITH chains/belts, then be sure to rotate back to stronger tread up front to maintain equal rolling radii with Subie's 60F/40R weight distribution. Do NOT take my warning lightly, as used trannies are $2k installed.

Grasshopper, for YOU I'd suggest carrying an extra set of loaded winter tires/wheels just in case you encounter that upcoming freak storm in La La Land....

Thanks "The SubaruGuruBoston", I'm concerned about the asymmetry issue. In the most severe road conditions in the Sierra mountains the CHP requires/enforces the use approved traction devices, generally chains or cables. Other than not driving there is no getting around this and sometimes one must drive for several hours this way. (The cold air may help with transmission overheating). The 2006 Outback owners' manual cautions against chains on some models and tire sizes, citing interference. It also states that when chains are necessary to use Type S chains on the front wheels and limit speed to 19mph. It would seem the asymmetry concern could be satisfied by mounting the same model of S chains/cables all around, but I don't know whether this might stress the transfer system in some other way - it would be interesting to hear the experiences of owners of 5sp. automatics who use chains.

I think you'd be ok with identical systems on all 4 locations.

My grand daughter attended 4 years of college in Northern Idaho. Her Kia Soranto was a total failure and left her stuck nd stranded in the snow several times. I told her if she could get it to Salt Lake City I would meet her there and let her use my 2011 3.6R equipped with 2.5 in lift, heavy duty way bar and skid plate and BF Goodrich all terrain tires. In 6 years she never had another problem. Including winter trips from Idaho to the Phoenix area. Never needed chains. It snowed on my way back to Las Vegas. The Kia was a miserable failure. problem was throttle positionimg sensor. Also poor handling in heavy snow storm. She is still driving 2011 Outback.

You lifted an '11 OB another 2.5 inches? Wow! Glad to see you discovered the fatter swaybar. Did you leave the front suspension alone? The OE front sway and 20mm rear work really well together at stock height.

Did not alter front suspension. Just Subtle solutions lift spacer on all 4 struts with anti dive spacers stacked. Heavy duty swy bar was most effective modification. Lift makes huge diference of angle of entry and departure in crossing creeks and short washes. My 2015 rubs it nose in the dirt a lot. I added Nut certs to get rid of the plastic push pins on the skidd plate. Bolts are much better

Going to the STi's 20mm rear bar is magical on '10-12 and '15+ OBs, as the front bar is stiff enough. Did you go even bigger up front...like a 28mm?

No. Front is fine as stock.

TheSubaruGuruBoston, you mention how the rear bar is magical on 10-12 and 15+ Outbacks, but what's up with 13 & 14? I have a 2013 3.6R, and am a pretty new Subaru owner (bought it used two years ago).

"GuruBC73T" What did the lift cost? I have a 2.5 Premium, would the lift drag down the performance? Thanks

Carlethus, Gets interesting here, as the suspension is sufficiently stiffer in 2013-2014 OBs to not benefit as much with a fatter rear bar, unlike older and especially newest ones. HOWEVER, the added weight of the 3.6R screws up the CoG significantly, so that indeed that skinny rear bar can't keep the body flat when torqued by the heavier front end. So DO IT! I recently drove a '17 Legacy Ltd 3.6R Sedan and was absolutely shocked at the increased roll and sloppiness compared to the normally-nice body control of the stock 2.5i setup. I peeked under the rear, and sure enough saw that skinny 16mm bar. This week I bought a '17 Legacy 2.5i Premium, verifying its native good manners. So that extra 100lbs up front really does wreak havoc with body control. Online dealer sells the 20mm bar with bushings on eBay for $90 shipped...a very fine deal. But don't think for a minute that you'll be able to remove your vestigial end links. Many have died trying.... Perfectly good new ones sell for $20 ea online. So for under $150 and 45min time you'll thank me again. Hint: Perform the swap in this order to save time: 1. Jack both rear corners (no need to remove wheels) 2. Remove 14mm link-to-chassis nut and bolt and both 12mm bushing bracket bolts 3. Wiggle off the rubber bushings, so that you can easily 4. Pry UP the end link (use a long screwdriver as a lever if necessary) to remove 5. Repeat on other side Installation: 1.Loosely place bar full assembly (links can be loose or tight) in position 2. Spray lube in chassis anchors to make it easier to... 3. Orient link end in chassis; push bolt through both holes; loosely mount 14mm nut 4. Repeat 3 on other side (this makes life easier!) 5. Mount rubber bushing in place, and its bracket; attach its 12mm bolts 6. Tighten end link nuts as necessary 7. Repeat on other side 8. Tighten all bolts and nuts First time will take an hour. I'm down to about 20-30min with hand tools lying on ice in Beantown! Send me some 70+% chocolate. Cheers.

I'm realizing that it's pretty stupid to post this procedure in this old thread. Maybe I should start a new one?

TheSubaruGuruBoston Is the rear sway bar a benefit for the 2015 OB 2.5i Premium. It sounds like you're saying its only for the 3.6 engine due to weight? I was wondering what you thought of the lift kit mentioned above as well? I'm new to Subaru's. Thanks

Yes, the 20mm Sti rear swaybar GREATLY benefits ALL 2015-2019 OBs, as well all 2010- 2012 2.5i OBs, all 2010-2014 OB 3.6R, and all Legacy 3.6R. Only the 2013-2014 OB 2.5i and all Legacy 2.5i are pretty good without the nod. Lifting the CoG of any OB is not recommended by me. If anything, I prefer DROPPING them a half inch with one size shorter tire aspect ratio. Remember, only in North America are the OBs so tall. A Euro OB...or Legacy GT Wagon...is lower, so doesn't require a stiffer rear bar fix. Except maybe still the Euro OB 3.6R? See new thread I posted re this mod.

Further, the 20mm rear bar is MORE important to body control and neutral handling than the 18" wheel/tire upgrade inherent in the Limited models! Hard to believe, but easily proven. ANY of my 17" alloy OB Premiums cum bar handle better than any unmodified 18"Limiteds! But modded Limiteds are the best, of course, as the 60 series tires are stiffer than the truck-like 17's. Indeed, that sub-$200 mod is a LOT cheaper than chasing a new 18" (Limited) wheel/tire setup. Sometimes we get lucky.

I called a dealership here in SoCal regarding the tire chain issue. Like it was stated earlier in this thread, Z6 front and back to protect the tranie.

"ThesubaruGuruBoston" You mentioned that "But don't think for a minute that you'll be able to remove your vestigial end links. Many have died trying.... Perfectly good new ones sell for $20 ea online." What do you mean by that? Is there a danger in doing this? I'm new to Subaru and just bought the 20 mm sway and OEM bushings. Do you have a link you recommend for the End links if I need them? I read so say I need upgrade and others say OEM are fine. Thanks

No danger. It's just that the separating the stud from its securing nut requires holding the stud stable with its small internal hex with an allen key. The duos become rusted up very quickly, such that the allen head on the stud strips quickly. It;s simply much faster to buy two new end links and easily bolt them up to your new swaybar. Trust me on this one.

"TheSubaruGuruBoston" OK, thanks, this will be the biggest car project I've ever done so a little nervous. So no need to upgrade to stiffer / better (?) links because it was mentioned about the 2015 OEM links maybe breaking due to the stiffer bar. Also, is the end link set for the 20 mm sway bar the same as the one for my OEM bar? I spent 20 min with Subaru online and he couldn't help me or give me the part number. Then I called my local dealer and he never heard of upgrading the sway bar (???), he gave me a part that cost $74.00 each for end links. Are you talking about just replacing the Sway Bar hardware (nut and screw), if so do you know the part number, I can't get any help from Subaru? Thank You for your help!

Just go to eBay and search for the end links. The ones that have perpendicular mounts (ie, the lower end mounts fore and aft on the body sub-frame; the upper ball-joint-like stud mounts on the new bar's open end hole. Easy as pie.) They routinely sell for $15-20 ea. If you ever wear one out it can be replaced in about 20min...but I've never seen one go.

This thread seems irrevocably bent. Maybe we should continue under "Subaru Swaybar Mod" or similar.

Maybe this thread needs a heavier swaybar so it doesn't get irrevocably bent? Alternate answer: you get bent, how dare you interrupt our fun thread =)

My first laugh this morning. Bravo.

TheSubaruGuruBoston:I finally upgraded my sway bar on your advice. WOW, what a difference. Drives so much better. Been on several 5 hr mountain turn drives at 70 plus and you really feel much more secure. Also on hard turns when braking.Thanks again! As far as the snow chains go - I'm looking at these AutoSocks. https://autosock.us/ These might be the real answer for chains and Subarus. (Approved in 50 states (including Ca and Co) and no clearance problems for the Subbie at all. And very easy.) But you are saying I need to buy 2 sets (4 total) to not mess up my Outback, right? How could Subaru recommend front only if it trashes the car, frustrating !!! Thanks.